Why is Quebec significantly reverting back to in-person signatures?

Intro Speaker:  

Hello, and welcome to Matters Beyond Wealth with your host, Leanne Kaufman, president and CEO of RBC Royal Trust. For most of us, talking about subjects like aging, late life, and estate planning isn’t easy. That’s why we’re going to help get the conversation started on this podcast while benefiting from the insights and expertise of some of the country’s top experts. We want to bring you information today that will help to protect you and your family in the future. Now, here’s your host, Leanne.

Leanne Kaufman:

Hello. I’m Leanne Kaufman, and welcome to RBC Wealth Management Canada’s Matters Beyond Wealth. Today I’m excited to introduce our guest host, Carmela Guerriero, vice-president of Sales and Client Experience at RBC Royal Trust. Carmela, take it away.

Carmela Guerriero:

We discussed in a previous episode how British Columbia became the first province in Canada to allow fully electronic digital Wills. The shift towards digital in many instances has its benefits, but it also comes with a few risks. Perhaps we are starting to see some of those risks. In a surprising turn of events, Quebec has recently reverted to in-person signatures for all notarial acts, significantly reducing the capabilities of virtual signing. This shift has sparked questions about the reasons behind the decision to reduce the acceptance of digital signatures. As the legal landscape adapts, attention turns to alternative methods being considered for notarial acts, raising discussions on the future of secure and convenient documentation in Quebec’s legal processes.

Hello, I’m Carmela Guerriero, and welcome to RBC Wealth Management Canada’s Matters Beyond Wealth. With me today is Hugo Fournier-Gendron, a notary with the firm Gendron, Carpentier. He has in-depth expertise in wealth protection and transmission, with a particular focus on the related tax implications. He has lectured for the Association de planification fiscale et financière (the APFF, and thanks to his in-depth knowledge of laws and regulations, he brings us sound strategic advice to dive into this topic.

Hugo, thanks for being here with me today to discuss the new legislation on virtual signing being significantly pulled back to in-person for all signatures, and why this matters beyond wealth.

Hugo Fournier-Gendron:

Thank you for having me.

Carmela Guerriero:

Hugo, Quebec’s Act to modernize notarial practice and promote access to justice was adopted by the government to address the evolving legal landscape and the role of technology in daily life. What specific changes does Bill 34 introduce to modernize notarial practice and enhance access to justice?

Hugo Fournier-Gendron:

Bill 34 is actually pretty major for us notaries. It touches on a bunch of subjects, and of course I’ll just focus on the essential. Keep in mind, not all provisions are currently in force, but overall we can say that the entire notarial profession has been revamped to account for the importance of digital technology in our day-to-day lives.

Going forward, the notarial act will be signing electronically all the time. That will become the norm, but we will prioritize in-person signing. That will mean that we’ll sign on the computer, on the smartphone, but at the notary’s office. It’s a bit strange at first, but it only means that we’re not going to be signing on paper anymore, we’re going to be signing electronically. Signature on paper will be still available, but only in exceptional cases where, for example, the client is really not comfortable with technology, and those documents which are signed on paper will need to be digitized and added to our electronic vaults—if we can say that.

Remote signature is a hot topic also for us notaries. As some of your listeners may know, during COVID it became possible to sign remotely electronically before a notary, which was completely new in Quebec. Now, remote signature has been reduced. The cases where we can sign remotely have been reduced, but it’s not prohibited. There are very few cases where we can sign remotely. Those cases are when the client requests it, makes the request to sign remotely, and that the circumstances are demanding it. For example, the client has an illness, has mobility issues, all those things, and the signature can be done remotely, but it must respect the rights and interests of the parties.

The law also says that it should be exceptional, it cannot be established as a system. The notary cannot become an online notary only. We must remain the notaries that are in the community and sign with people and meet in person. People need to have physical access to us.

Carmela Guerriero:

Taking [it] back [to] that topic on the remote [signing], because that was very popular during COVID-19, having that [be] pulled back and [become] very specific, do you think it’ll have an impact to Quebecers? Will this in some ways hinder Quebecers from, for example, drafting their Wills? In a situation where there is no remote capabilities, will they say, “Yeah, put that on the back burner then”?

Hugo Fournier-Gendron:

Personally, I think not, because we can still do it on paper if required. Also, the law is still flexible, and allows us to take into account those situations. People can still do their Wills by hand if they want. They don’t necessarily need a notary to do their Wills. Obviously I’m a notary, so I’m going to tell you it’s better to do it with a notary, obviously, but no, I think Quebecers will still be able to draw up their Wills, even in regions where there is no digital capabilities.

Carmela Guerriero:

Do you also have a sentiment of…do you feel this new environment creates an inequality of access to notarial services, meaning the clients for notaries that live in more remote parts of Quebec and cannot really access remote or virtual services? Do they need to figure something out differently?

Hugo Fournier-Gendron:

Obviously, there are still issues in Quebec with regards to access to legal services, notarial services included. It’s a complex problem that doesn’t solely stem from access to technology. In order to sign electronically, as is to be the norm, you’ll need to have internet access. That may be a problem, an issue, but I feel that there may be still regions in Quebec where internet access is really not existent, but those places are, I think, few and fewer.

We also are trying to improve access to justice. That was one of the objectives of the new law. For example, the Chambre des Notaires, our governing body, if we can say that, has a fund to finance research and finance measures. With the law, that fund is now tasked with financing measures to promote access to justice. I think maybe we’ll see some new measures, some new solutions to promote access to justice.

Carmela Guerriero:

That’s great. I think back at the onset of the pandemic, there was a big welcome to have remote signing or electronic signing being made available, it was quite the change. Today, telecommuting and remote medical consultations have stayed the course, and expectations have changed. Are you hearing any feedback from clients that they’re expecting full-on virtual or remote services from all their notaries?

Hugo Fournier-Gendron:

Me personally, in my practice, not really. Clients, they have a very personal relationship with us because we do their Wills, it means a lot for them and their family. If we say we’d like to meet in person to discuss this, usually they go with it. They want to meet us also because we have a privileged relationship and drafting a Will is also sensitive. That being said, it very much depends on the practice and then the clientele.

A fully-digital notarial professional without any physical offices is not permitted by the new law. That will not be possible to have that kind of practice. I think, frankly, the law targeted those discount notaries or websites that you can do your Will for $200. You do it really yourself, and you meet the notary for 15 minutes at the end of the process to just sign. I would be uncomfortable with that and I’m fine with the law prohibiting that, but there’s a lot of debate about all of that, of course. Yeah, people are adapting to the scope of the remote signature being reduced for now, yes.

Carmela Guerriero:

How about concerns with respect to security of any electronic means or remote [signatures]? Any concerns there that you’re seeing?

Hugo Fournier-Gendron:

Yes, some people have expressed concerns, of course. Anytime you use a new technology, it inevitably entails new risks, that’s by definition. We must be aware of this and we can try to mitigate this risk. We can mitigate risk by understanding it and putting in place solutions that are adapted to the risk. The Chambre des Notaires, they’re providing us with training and recommendations, but it’s our responsibility as notaries to inform ourselves of these new systems, how they work, what are the risks associated with them. Yes, there’s a lot of work there to be done.

Carmela Guerriero:

Hugo, I guess it’d be interesting if you can share with us an example. Let’s say you do have a client that actually can’t get to see you for whatever reason. They’re immobile, sick at home, and there’s some urgent need to either sign a sale of their home or even their Will. What would that process look like for that exceptional case that you talked about? What would it actually look like?

Hugo Fournier-Gendron:

It’s actually not all that different from when we do it in person. I approach it pretty much the same way, but we meet remotely via Microsoft Teams or any kind of Zoom, and we discuss the same things. I’m a little bit more attentive or careful with regards to identity and capacity, and also that there is not abuse. We sign remotely during a meeting just like this one. We have a website, and people are usually pretty comfortable with the technology side of it, even people who are older and are not very much used to using a computer. For me personally, I’ve done this hundreds of times, and it’s never happened to me that people were not able to sign.

Carmela Guerriero:

That’s good. You’re following the same regimented procedures as if they were in person, right? You’re validating them, you’re ensuring that they’re fully capable. All that’s being done still. That’s pretty remarkable.

Hugo Fournier-Gendron:

Yeah, yeah. If I have any doubts about the people, that there’s abuse, then I stop that and we revert to in-person meetings, obviously.

Carmela Guerriero:

That’s great.

Hugo, if you hope listeners just remember one thing from this conversation, what would that one thing be?

Hugo Fournier-Gendron:

Notaries in Quebec, we are involved at very specific and important moments in people’s lives, buying a new home, doing their Will, marrying, all those things. I think with the new law, the notarial profession is going to be modernizing to keep accompanying Quebecers at those very important moments in their lives.

Carmela Guerriero:

Well, thank you, Hugo, for joining me today to talk about the new legislation on virtual signing and why this matters beyond wealth.

Hugo Fournier-Gendron:

Thank you very much for having me.

Carmela Guerriero:

You can find out more about Hugo Fournier-Gendron on LinkedIn .

If you enjoyed this episode and you’d like to help support the podcast, please share it with others, post about it on social media, or leave a rating and review. Until next time, I’m Carmela Guerriero, standing in for Leanne Kaufman. Thank you for joining us.

Outro speaker:

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